Being AMY
Photograph by May Tse SCMP
Interview with conceptual artist Amy Cheung
How do you speak to an artist who has overcome the red tape in a strongly conforming society? One who has been pivotal in conveying her ideas on culture, life, and psychology? One who has been called upon by her nation to honor some of the most talented people and, who continues to be dominant in the field of true expression? Speak less, and listen more...
AMY: Lately I have been really interested in psychology. Last year, when I was in the States, I met the psychologist, Phillip Zimbardo. He's the creator of the Stanford Prison Experiment. In the 70's, he separated his students into groups of prisoners and guards, and that was such a mind-blowing experiment. I got to know him and I'm really fascinated by this idea of how an individual turns into evil and how an individual turns into being a good person. Is there some kind of perimeter or protocol that you can change people to be one way or another? So, lately I've been thinking a lot about these subjects. I've collaborated with him about this, too.
COPELAND: How do you feel psychology influences art?
A: Before I turned to fashion, I had worked on an installation for the Hong Kong film director- John Woo. He directed one part of the "Mission Impossible" Trilogy and also is responsible for the film "Face Off." He won the Live Achievement Award at the Venice Film Festival a few years ago. The Hong Kong Film Council wanted me to make a tribute installation outside the Venice Film Festival for the red carpet. It had to be a John Woo kind of work. It had to be made by me because installations are what I started with. They wanted the audience to walk through my installation to the red carpet. So, I flew to meet John Woo and interviewed him, then I talked to him about his core concept.
AMY: Lately I have been really interested in psychology. Last year, when I was in the States, I met the psychologist, Phillip Zimbardo. He's the creator of the Stanford Prison Experiment. In the 70's, he separated his students into groups of prisoners and guards, and that was such a mind-blowing experiment. I got to know him and I'm really fascinated by this idea of how an individual turns into evil and how an individual turns into being a good person. Is there some kind of perimeter or protocol that you can change people to be one way or another? So, lately I've been thinking a lot about these subjects. I've collaborated with him about this, too.
COPELAND: How do you feel psychology influences art?
A: Before I turned to fashion, I had worked on an installation for the Hong Kong film director- John Woo. He directed one part of the "Mission Impossible" Trilogy and also is responsible for the film "Face Off." He won the Live Achievement Award at the Venice Film Festival a few years ago. The Hong Kong Film Council wanted me to make a tribute installation outside the Venice Film Festival for the red carpet. It had to be a John Woo kind of work. It had to be made by me because installations are what I started with. They wanted the audience to walk through my installation to the red carpet. So, I flew to meet John Woo and interviewed him, then I talked to him about his core concept.
Amy with award-winning film director, John Woo.
He told me that there’s one theme that he was really intrigued by, one film that was really important to him was "Face Off." He's always thinking about identity- if you change your face, you're a good person- but if you change your face to a bad person, you become bad. Nicholas Cage and John Travolta- one is an FBI agent and the other a villain. When they change their face, would they still remain who they are? Perceptions of them are totally different- circumstantial factors are totally different. Would they still remain themselves? I talked to him a long time about these ideas. Finally, I made an installation called "Face Machine."
Installation: Face Machine
"When they change their face, would they still remain who they are?" - Amy Cheung
It’s a little bit about being good or evil during your lifetime. I interviewed about eight elderly people. I asked them what is the kindest thing that you have ever done in your life, and what was the most evil thing you have ever done? I recorded this and [played it back with an image of] their face. It’s a mechanical installation. There is a robotic arm picking up the faces and putting them into a small body. When the mechanical arm puts the face onto the body, it begins to speak. It speaks either good or evil. It’s a little bit like reincarnation. Like when you're a little baby and you think about your future. I showed this to Professor Zimbardo and he really liked the idea. He felt it was exactly the concept he was researching. It turns out Professor Zimbardo and I had the same thought because he was thinking about how ordinary people can turn into heroes.
The conference at Telluride that we met at was called "The Science of Compassion." The presenters were talking about how humanity can be more compassionate or people can be kind to each other. The scientists wanted to prove that there are signs for humanity to grow in a compassionate and loving way. Professor Zimbardo was at that conference and he said that for a few decades he's been studying the dark side of being human, but now he wanted to study how people could become good- the bright side of people- how ordinary people can have moral courage and perform heroic actions. He started a foundation called "Heroic Imagination Project." In this project, they use science to find out how ordinary people can be encouraged to be heroic- the right mindset so that when the right circumstances come along- they would be able to take heroic action. They began to raise funds. I suggested that I could donate artwork to help in fundraising- but it has to be about Heroic Imagination.
The conference at Telluride that we met at was called "The Science of Compassion." The presenters were talking about how humanity can be more compassionate or people can be kind to each other. The scientists wanted to prove that there are signs for humanity to grow in a compassionate and loving way. Professor Zimbardo was at that conference and he said that for a few decades he's been studying the dark side of being human, but now he wanted to study how people could become good- the bright side of people- how ordinary people can have moral courage and perform heroic actions. He started a foundation called "Heroic Imagination Project." In this project, they use science to find out how ordinary people can be encouraged to be heroic- the right mindset so that when the right circumstances come along- they would be able to take heroic action. They began to raise funds. I suggested that I could donate artwork to help in fundraising- but it has to be about Heroic Imagination.
Brain scan data example.
When he was in Hong Kong a few months ago, we started this collaboration. We both went into an FMRI scanner to scan our brain when we were thinking about heroes. So when it was my turn, I just kept thinking about this really conceptual art piece, so I was just going into the brain scanner and using my brain waves as a tool to do this artwork. I was thinking for four minutes 'what is a hero?' What do heroes do? What image do I have of a hero? Professor Zimbardo did the same for four minutes. With the images created, we have these personal versions of a hero, then fused into one image of hero. So this is what we're working on.
C: So this is a graphical image that was generated?
A: Um, yes and no. We were taking the data of the brain in many, many different areas. So, the areas of the brain that have the most blood level when thinking about an image. There are like ten thousand spots that were active. Some spots had higher blood pressure, some less. In the end, the result is numerical figures. A special program generates an image from all those figures.
C: So this is a graphical image that was generated?
A: Um, yes and no. We were taking the data of the brain in many, many different areas. So, the areas of the brain that have the most blood level when thinking about an image. There are like ten thousand spots that were active. Some spots had higher blood pressure, some less. In the end, the result is numerical figures. A special program generates an image from all those figures.
C: Now a little more about fashion, it looks like you are marketing your current fashion line to a Western audience with a Chinese influence, is that true?
A: I don't know if it’s Chinese at all. In Hong Kong we are very sensitive about that. Especially in my generation, I was born in Hong Kong before China took over. Therefore, my upbringing is very much influenced by the British Colonial System. I spoke English most of the time at school, and I went to England to study. So I have a very ambivalent idea about my Chinese identity. But maybe as you say- people are people- so I'm very conscience about my work having a universal language or vocabulary that can be understood by many. I don't use propaganda or promote myself as Chinese. It is a huge advantage when I come back to Hong Kong. And in China, people really like being Chinese designers with international exposure. Maybe I'm really silly for not using my Hong Kong Chinese background abroad more and gaining international exposure. I'm beginning to think that it may be an advantage, but I have never been really thinking about it and using it in my work.
C: People love your work, and they love the work that you do as a solo artist. People also loved Picasso and Michelangelo. These individuals expressed themselves as artists. So you're fortunate that you happen to be one of those artists that people love the soul of who you are- because your artwork is well accepted.
A: Maybe, I would think that I'm very, very fortunate. Especially in Hong Kong I've been very fortunate, because it’s very rare for Hong Kong artists to have the opportunity to express your art work the way that I do. So yes, I'm very fortunate. I'm so un-Hong Kong. I also do massive pieces, so large that only museums can showcase them. People in general ask me why I create art, which is so hard to sell. But I don't really think about a plan B. I don't create a piece with the thought of whether I can store it or sell it. That’s not my objective or agenda. Maybe that makes me a little different. So, yes I've been able to do things I really, really want- 120%.
A: I don't know if it’s Chinese at all. In Hong Kong we are very sensitive about that. Especially in my generation, I was born in Hong Kong before China took over. Therefore, my upbringing is very much influenced by the British Colonial System. I spoke English most of the time at school, and I went to England to study. So I have a very ambivalent idea about my Chinese identity. But maybe as you say- people are people- so I'm very conscience about my work having a universal language or vocabulary that can be understood by many. I don't use propaganda or promote myself as Chinese. It is a huge advantage when I come back to Hong Kong. And in China, people really like being Chinese designers with international exposure. Maybe I'm really silly for not using my Hong Kong Chinese background abroad more and gaining international exposure. I'm beginning to think that it may be an advantage, but I have never been really thinking about it and using it in my work.
C: People love your work, and they love the work that you do as a solo artist. People also loved Picasso and Michelangelo. These individuals expressed themselves as artists. So you're fortunate that you happen to be one of those artists that people love the soul of who you are- because your artwork is well accepted.
A: Maybe, I would think that I'm very, very fortunate. Especially in Hong Kong I've been very fortunate, because it’s very rare for Hong Kong artists to have the opportunity to express your art work the way that I do. So yes, I'm very fortunate. I'm so un-Hong Kong. I also do massive pieces, so large that only museums can showcase them. People in general ask me why I create art, which is so hard to sell. But I don't really think about a plan B. I don't create a piece with the thought of whether I can store it or sell it. That’s not my objective or agenda. Maybe that makes me a little different. So, yes I've been able to do things I really, really want- 120%.
Installation: A Bleeding Toy From Childhood- 2006 Saatchi Gallery.
Photos by Peter Macdiarmid/ Getty Images Europe
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Installation: A Bleeding Toy From Childhood- 2006 Saatchi Gallery.
Photos by Peter Macdiarmid/ Getty Images Europe
Installation: Ashes Unto Pearl- 2008
C: Do you ever think about walking along the streets- and I'm using the word street specifically because of your latest collection- do you think to your self as you're looking around that something may be inspiration?
A: (Laughs) Inspiration comes very suddenly- like when I've been thinking of something for a really, really long time. For example, it may come when I'm eating a bowl of noodles or when I'm on the subway.
C: There was a gentleman who was a savant and would remember numbers. But the way he remembered numbers was in an artistic way. He remembered them in colors. So when you have ideas, do you see them as a concept or do you see them as a shape or pattern and begin to clarify it?
A: For me it’s a concept- almost like a philosophical investigation. The hard part is how to apply that to design. For my artwork, the concept, material, and realizing it is most difficult. For example, for the Heroic Image piece- we have the brain scans of all this data- these brain spots for the image. What material should I use to reveal the image? Finally, it has to be our blood. Because for me, a hero is somebody who sacrifices their life to the cause they believe in. So I have Professor Zimbardo's blood. (Jokingly Laughs)
A: (Laughs) Inspiration comes very suddenly- like when I've been thinking of something for a really, really long time. For example, it may come when I'm eating a bowl of noodles or when I'm on the subway.
C: There was a gentleman who was a savant and would remember numbers. But the way he remembered numbers was in an artistic way. He remembered them in colors. So when you have ideas, do you see them as a concept or do you see them as a shape or pattern and begin to clarify it?
A: For me it’s a concept- almost like a philosophical investigation. The hard part is how to apply that to design. For my artwork, the concept, material, and realizing it is most difficult. For example, for the Heroic Image piece- we have the brain scans of all this data- these brain spots for the image. What material should I use to reveal the image? Finally, it has to be our blood. Because for me, a hero is somebody who sacrifices their life to the cause they believe in. So I have Professor Zimbardo's blood. (Jokingly Laughs)
Professor Zimbardo and Amy Cheung
"...a hero is somebody who sacrifices their life to the cause they believe in..." - Amy Cheung
C: (Laughs) Well, I'm sure he donated it to a worthy cause!
A: (Laughs) I think so.
C: So, you grew up as an artist or dreamer by nature. Then you were educated in the analytical process- politics, business, economics- and began pairing the two. Is that correct?
A: Correct, but there’s more to it. I was a dreamer, but I suppressed that in Hong Kong. During the process of my growing up, I always appeared to be a very conforming child. I met all the standards of academic excellency. In Hong Kong, you have to be really good in order to survive. It was a very competitive environment. So I did the best I could. I studied economics and so on. I didn't really like those things. Then my liberation came when I went to London to study fashion. That’s when I was able to develop my potential. London is the city that liberated me. I received appreciation and recognition for who I am.
C: So- why fashion?
A: Well, it’s also a little handy, because my father has a fabric factory. I wasn't totally interested in that, but I wanted a larger challenge. Then in 2008, the financial crisis struck. A lot of people returned the fabric because they didn't have credit. He called me and my brother and said- Amy, I've never asked you for help, but now you both need to start a brand. In this brand, you have to use a lot of this fabric. He said if you're a truly creative person, you will be able to make this fabric into beautiful clothes. I was really tempted, because I felt that the ultimate creativity is to take something and transform it into something else. So it was solving a problem.
C: Was your creativity active previous to your fashion persona?
A: Yes- mostly in art and installation. I studied fashion, but never really used it.
C: So you're very resilient?
A: I don't know, I try. I think maybe because my belief of art is that it can give people hope. This is a very important discovery and element. I thought for a long time that art is not useful. I expressed myself, but I didn't think it was useful to anybody. I thought this way when I was younger. It was always something that was presented to a small circle of friends. Later, when I got a bit more popular, then I felt the connection with the public. A lot of people think of design as just drawing something, but design has a large ambition. It has to change something for the good of humanity. If a person doesn't understand the implication or impact of design- then I don't think they are a good designer.
C: I think that art is sometimes not valued because it has a large emotional aspect, whereas money, facts, and data can be realized and manipulated. Is art just as valuable even with a large emotional aspect?
A: Let me tell you about one of my older works called Chance Machine. This is a really good question, I've been thinking about that for a long time. I was investigating the difference between price and value. If something is considered valuable, does it mean it has to have a high price? My conclusion is no. Just because something is very valuable, it doesn't mean that it has to have a high price. Emotion and logic are two different parts of completeness. You cannot say that sugar- because it’s sweeter- has a higher value than salt. You cannot really define it like that. Because, one time I was doing a work and was blindfolded for three days. Right at the last moment, I just remember this little kid who's been holding my hand those three days. I remember that feeling of holding hands as emotional currency. At that moment, I don't think money had any importance to me, because I couldn't see what a dollar even was. It doesn't make a difference to me in my everyday living either, because if I wear a Chanel piece or something that’s one dollar, it doesn't really matter. But, the meaning of that little kid's hand bringing me everywhere and caring for me was emotional currency for my well-being at that moment.
A: (Laughs) I think so.
C: So, you grew up as an artist or dreamer by nature. Then you were educated in the analytical process- politics, business, economics- and began pairing the two. Is that correct?
A: Correct, but there’s more to it. I was a dreamer, but I suppressed that in Hong Kong. During the process of my growing up, I always appeared to be a very conforming child. I met all the standards of academic excellency. In Hong Kong, you have to be really good in order to survive. It was a very competitive environment. So I did the best I could. I studied economics and so on. I didn't really like those things. Then my liberation came when I went to London to study fashion. That’s when I was able to develop my potential. London is the city that liberated me. I received appreciation and recognition for who I am.
C: So- why fashion?
A: Well, it’s also a little handy, because my father has a fabric factory. I wasn't totally interested in that, but I wanted a larger challenge. Then in 2008, the financial crisis struck. A lot of people returned the fabric because they didn't have credit. He called me and my brother and said- Amy, I've never asked you for help, but now you both need to start a brand. In this brand, you have to use a lot of this fabric. He said if you're a truly creative person, you will be able to make this fabric into beautiful clothes. I was really tempted, because I felt that the ultimate creativity is to take something and transform it into something else. So it was solving a problem.
C: Was your creativity active previous to your fashion persona?
A: Yes- mostly in art and installation. I studied fashion, but never really used it.
C: So you're very resilient?
A: I don't know, I try. I think maybe because my belief of art is that it can give people hope. This is a very important discovery and element. I thought for a long time that art is not useful. I expressed myself, but I didn't think it was useful to anybody. I thought this way when I was younger. It was always something that was presented to a small circle of friends. Later, when I got a bit more popular, then I felt the connection with the public. A lot of people think of design as just drawing something, but design has a large ambition. It has to change something for the good of humanity. If a person doesn't understand the implication or impact of design- then I don't think they are a good designer.
C: I think that art is sometimes not valued because it has a large emotional aspect, whereas money, facts, and data can be realized and manipulated. Is art just as valuable even with a large emotional aspect?
A: Let me tell you about one of my older works called Chance Machine. This is a really good question, I've been thinking about that for a long time. I was investigating the difference between price and value. If something is considered valuable, does it mean it has to have a high price? My conclusion is no. Just because something is very valuable, it doesn't mean that it has to have a high price. Emotion and logic are two different parts of completeness. You cannot say that sugar- because it’s sweeter- has a higher value than salt. You cannot really define it like that. Because, one time I was doing a work and was blindfolded for three days. Right at the last moment, I just remember this little kid who's been holding my hand those three days. I remember that feeling of holding hands as emotional currency. At that moment, I don't think money had any importance to me, because I couldn't see what a dollar even was. It doesn't make a difference to me in my everyday living either, because if I wear a Chanel piece or something that’s one dollar, it doesn't really matter. But, the meaning of that little kid's hand bringing me everywhere and caring for me was emotional currency for my well-being at that moment.
Installation: Chance Machine- 2011. Photograph by Cheung Chi Wai
"...Emotion and logic are two different parts of completeness."
- Amy Cheung
- Amy Cheung
C: The world operates on logical currency, it is said that the business world operates successfully if you have no emotion. Many times it’s irrespective of individual emotion. It’s usually compared to a machine. Is it possible to create an environment where emotional currency is more dominant?
A: I don't know about the current structure, but I know that there is a country that the whole country’s well-being is defined by the happiness index. I think in a country like that it would be possible. I don't think people can live without emotion. For example, a baby will die if the mother doesn't love it. I don't think the human race would be able to effectively function. It would be heart-breaking to think of a future like that. It’s a very tragic view.
C: Is emotion the definition of humanity?
A: Maybe not completely, but a very important part. Recently, I was reading this book about the wellness of being ("Triumphs of Experience- The Men of the Harvard Grant Study- 1934"). It was a really long study about people. 268 healthy men were elected to be a part of the study. Three classes at Harvard were offered for this study. All these men had been through ups and downs, and now some of them are in their 90's. So researchers have been looking at what makes a good life. A lot of things happened, and some of them had become alcoholics, suicidal, and some a very bad life. A Harvard degree doesn't always promise a happy future, although some of them had a great life. But one very important fact was, that as they marched into the decades of the 80's and 90's, what it meant to them to have a good life was always love and happiness. So the conclusion was that happiness is love. So if you're able to love- not only your partner- but your grandchildren, your work, things you feel good about- things you have an emotional engagement with- you'll always have a better life. You'll have more well-being. Emotional deficiency can create unhappiness. So we cannot live without emotion.
C: You have a very good feel for how much presentation has an effect on the emotions of people. It seems to come through in your artwork and designs. Is that accurate?
A: It is quite accurate. I feel a little bit didactic in a user friendly way. I want my work to be less didactic in the future. I want to include the flexibility of the user’s involvement. For example, the dress I designed that allows transformation. There are two ways to wear it- this way and that way (Laughs). But in art, there is only one way that’s right and that is the artist’s way. But, I have a feeling fashion is more accommodating, it’s almost like theatre. People have to be involved and like it, and be a participant. You cannot say you MUST like my work. You have to be able to evoke the emotion in the user- which is our customer. In theatre it's the audience. So I feel it should be more open and not so didactic. When I design an item for fashion, I really hope that the end result will be wearable- that it will be loved.□
A: I don't know about the current structure, but I know that there is a country that the whole country’s well-being is defined by the happiness index. I think in a country like that it would be possible. I don't think people can live without emotion. For example, a baby will die if the mother doesn't love it. I don't think the human race would be able to effectively function. It would be heart-breaking to think of a future like that. It’s a very tragic view.
C: Is emotion the definition of humanity?
A: Maybe not completely, but a very important part. Recently, I was reading this book about the wellness of being ("Triumphs of Experience- The Men of the Harvard Grant Study- 1934"). It was a really long study about people. 268 healthy men were elected to be a part of the study. Three classes at Harvard were offered for this study. All these men had been through ups and downs, and now some of them are in their 90's. So researchers have been looking at what makes a good life. A lot of things happened, and some of them had become alcoholics, suicidal, and some a very bad life. A Harvard degree doesn't always promise a happy future, although some of them had a great life. But one very important fact was, that as they marched into the decades of the 80's and 90's, what it meant to them to have a good life was always love and happiness. So the conclusion was that happiness is love. So if you're able to love- not only your partner- but your grandchildren, your work, things you feel good about- things you have an emotional engagement with- you'll always have a better life. You'll have more well-being. Emotional deficiency can create unhappiness. So we cannot live without emotion.
C: You have a very good feel for how much presentation has an effect on the emotions of people. It seems to come through in your artwork and designs. Is that accurate?
A: It is quite accurate. I feel a little bit didactic in a user friendly way. I want my work to be less didactic in the future. I want to include the flexibility of the user’s involvement. For example, the dress I designed that allows transformation. There are two ways to wear it- this way and that way (Laughs). But in art, there is only one way that’s right and that is the artist’s way. But, I have a feeling fashion is more accommodating, it’s almost like theatre. People have to be involved and like it, and be a participant. You cannot say you MUST like my work. You have to be able to evoke the emotion in the user- which is our customer. In theatre it's the audience. So I feel it should be more open and not so didactic. When I design an item for fashion, I really hope that the end result will be wearable- that it will be loved.□